Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold;
there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts;
there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami;
there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and;
there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
It’s not that easy to do away with religion. You have to believe in something. Don’t forget that even the Society of Humanists (or the Humanist Society) officially recognises itself as a religion – which actually has legal implications for the teaching of evolution in US schools.
Interesting how we like to impart the blame for humanity’s shortcomings on God. Human nature will do its best to find an excuse to deny God.
Sure there are multiple choices of which religion. In the end only one can be correct.. Whichever you choose – whichever philosophy of life you choose, you have still chosen a ‘religion’ and you will defend that choice even to the death, unless of course you feel that it is not worth defending to the death, then there must be something wrong.
Someone once wrote he was amazed at the number of religious buildings he saw here in Indonesia. There’s one on practically every street corner and then he hypothesized that it was perhaps Indonesians were such devout society that they needed to have physical manifestations proving their devotion to God. I think corruption has got nothing to do with religion. Our problem is how we are brought up. From the early childhood, we see that our parents and others around us do not respect the law. We do not treat law as something we have to abide but we try to circumvent law at each possible opportunity. Corruption to our government officials is a way of life.. thats how it works – so its all fine. And being devout has got nothing to do with being good. It is about expecting God to cover your a** all the time.
My God, Rimafauzi. This is a really passionate, sincere and angry pamphlet. If I put some critical notes in this comment, it is not because I do not appreciate this article. As a matter of fact I do value this contribution. Very much so.
But.
Well, having gone through a similar process long ago (becoming an agnostic after an orthodox Christian upbringing) I can see some of your points. Believers -of organized religion or organized ideologies that is – very often don’t live up to the truths and principles they claim and judge others by. On the contrary: very often they abuse their ideology or religion at the cost of others. Which is or may be happening in Indonesia right now as well. The hardcore of believers is prone to exclusive thinking, intolerance, coercive converting and worse.
Indonesia is suffering no doubt from radical minorities also. But yet I don’t think the vices you attribute to the radicalization of religion were non existent before radicalism showed up in Indoensia. I don’t think corruption is worse now in comparison to twenty years ago for instance. Indifference to the poor is not new either (in other countries like Egypt or on the Gaza strip the popularity of radicals is mainly because only they provide social and medical welfare) and as for oppression: the second rate position of so called ‘communists’ during the New Order is unequaled.
Yes religious radicalism, like all radicalism should be fought ‘on the land, the sea and in the air’. I know the danger, I know where I come from. The struggle should be by peaceful means. By clear, confrontational articles like yours. Especially by policies that take away the causes of radicalism. By sensible debates.
Yet peaceful, tolerant religion is still mainstream – as far as I can see at least in Indonesia. And is – as incomprehensible as it is to me – relevant for the spiritual wellbeing of so many people.
PS: What is a good article? One that makes you think. Yours is an excellent one in this respect also.
Your observation is so true. Once upon a time, late 80-es. Moslims & Christians would celebrated Idul Fitri & Christmas together. At 1999 when I visited Jakarta for the first time after I came to live in NL, I was very surprised to hear the greeting Assalam….etc. instead of a simple Hello when I called my muslim friends.
There’s nothing wrong with religions as long as you respect others. What annoys me the most in our origin country is the assumption everyone there is a muslim. I have experienced this not only live but also online (do you recall the discussion with E?ha..ha..). Indonesia may be a country with the most moslim population in the world, but that doesn’t mean that every Ind. must be a moslim.
I agree with Lorraine.
It goes even up to a point where non-Muslim are forced to develop extra tolerance, and yet the non-Muslims are not given the same treatment back.
Whenever fasting season arrives, all of a sudden no one is allowed to eat or drink in public, for fear of tempting the Muslims to break their fasting habit.
Women must dress “sensibly” up to a point where even the non-Muslim women are told to wear hijab (it happens in NAD), because they are seen as the object of everything sinful and deceiving.
And whenever non-Muslims try to earn more freedom to their rights, they have to really fight for it because people like FPI are over-reacting in everything and they resolve to violence to shut us down.
Sometimes I think Muslim people need not to be so sensitive. I swear they are just as sensitive as the African-American who goes, “Why?? Cuz I’m BLACK!?” when things don’t go their way.
As we both already know, Mbak Rima and me have different view on religion especially Islam. But both us never fight and curse each other. I am muslimah, Mbak Rima is an agnostic (ex-Muslimah), i wear head hijab, mbak Rima does not (of course).
But we never fight each other. Please note this point.
Me, myself, i never feel bother knowing that Mbak was a Muslimah. Well, i consider that faith and religion as private things that must be respected.
Sorry for being OOT, just do some warming exercise (fore play) before commenting. LOL.
So, I’m not gonna judge anybody here, who’s the wrong or who’s the right. I only tell my honest opinion.
Hmmm….i see this as personal choice and decision. Because only us, the ones who are the most responsible to our decision and choice. No one else will bear our responsibilities
About Islam as a religion, I see myself as Muslim by birth and by choice. Well, the latter comes few years lately, previously? I was numb hehehe.
I consider Islam as part of me, hmmm, just like my origin, I am Indonesian, no matter where I live or even change my citizenship for example, I am still Indonesian. Good or bad, Indonesia is my country of origin and Indonesian is my blood descendant.
So does Islam. I am both Indonesian and Muslimah. Like it or not, that’s the real fact.
Moga-moga gak OOT lagi ya, mbak. Hehehe. Have a nice day and days to go
I remember writing a similar post like this before in my blog (a simpler one of course) and yes, I wish I could go back to those times when religion wasn’t such a big deal
David: I’m aware of the Humanist Society declaring itself as a religion. But I’m not talking about those, I’m talking about ‘real’ religions, those who claim they were from ‘God’
Actually, I am not blaming God at all in my post, I’m blaming religious human who are committing evil things in the name of God.
some people might think following a philosophy of life is no different than religion, but I’m not talking about that. I am actually talking about the three main religions and all the sects within them.
Elyani: I too think corruption has got nothing to do with religion. My point was simply (apparently not that simple because I haven’t made the post easy to understand lol)’how come in a country like indonesia where the people claim they are religious, they are not shameful of the things they do, one of which is religion’. But I agree with you with the whole upbringing thing. Charity begins at home, so does crime, methinks.
And your last point about being devout thus thinking God covers your shit all the time, maybe that’s it, that’s what they think…
colson: I think you perfectly read my mood while writing this. Critique is most welcome. I do not expect only friendly input, you know.
As far as I know, there are no radical minority in Indonesia, but I might be wrong. And fyi, corruption now is worse than it was even 10 years ago. It has become more distributed, more people are corrupt now than it was ever before.
But I agree with you, ALL radicalism should be fought.
Lorraine: Yes, I agree with you. I once went to a morrocan market here in brussels, and a fruit seller asked me, “where are you from” I said, “Indonesia” he automatically said, “I will give you cheap price, Indonesians good,Abu Bakah ABshir good”
I just laughed it off, at least i got my fruits cheaper.
therry: well.. Indonesians are very sensitive nowadays, and the hardcore radical muslims are acting like, from your example, black americans. But they are forgetting something, they are not a minority in Indonesia..
yonna: Well, of course you and I never fight. Why and what would we fight about?
Religion or lack thereof, is very personal, which is why I am deeply bothered by Indonesians that are treating religion as something other than that (diumbar gitu lah maksudnya)
It’s not really oot kok yon, it’s important to understand that we should be able to be friends regardless of religion. And you and I are doing just that.
the writer: That’s what I wish too. But who knows, maybe in several years, we can have that again. Here’s to wishful thinking!
Rima, I agree with you. As you know from reading my blog, I have similar feelings about religion, and particularly about the spring-loaded sensitivity of Muslims to the least perceived slight (Therry made the same observation in her comment). The problem with the “triumphalist” religions like Islam and Christianity is that they are so easily twisted into a harshly intolerant view of belief. A sad commentary on the world.
Thanks for your reply.
I guess the adrenaline which goes with such a daring polemic article is not yet out of your system. Yet, trusting the cool of you, I venture this question fmi about
“And fyi, corruption now is worse than it was even 10 years ago”: do you care to share the figures (because ‘transparency international’ leaves me in the lurch)?
Colson: you can click here and open cpi 1996, on the 2nd page you will see indonesia and its’ score of 2.65 in ‘96, and 1.94 in ‘95.
Then go to page 6, in which you will see the historical data, Indonesia on # 45, look at the scores there. After that, go back to the original link I gave you, open cpi 1997, on page 7 you can see indonesia with a higher mark of 2.72. Then you can start opening cpi of ‘98 to 2007, in all of them Indonesia gets a lower than 2.6 mark again. ‘98 = 2.0. ‘99 = 1.7, ‘00 = 1.7 all the way to 2007 = 2.3.
So, corruption now is worse than 10-12 years ago, when the country was more secular and soeharto was still president. (bear in mind, surveys used before ‘96 was not very accurate, only two, compared to after ‘96 where 10 surveys were used, making it more accurate and thorough)
perhaps it’s wiser to include those facts as well? as supporting data and stuff ;D
Rima, I’ve got a special deal for you. You can join my Universal Church of Wonder. All we do is sit around and wonder what the hell is wrong with everybody else. We’re a discount church as well. We only want 2% of your wages.
“Religion or lack thereof, is very personal, which is why I am deeply bothered by Indonesians that are treating religion as something other than that (diumbar gitu lah maksudnya)”
I see, of course that matters are bugging. Saya aja ogah apalagi Mbak?! Mana ada orang mau dipaksa, ditanya2in, dikomentarin ini itu, dll. Tapi saya melihatnya, si Indonesians yang memperlakukan agama sampai berlebihan mungkin lupa atau gak peduli kalo dia sendiripun (kalo jadi orang lain) pasti merasa terganggu.
Jujur deh, saya geli ma pemahaman orang Islam yang mengartikan dakwah = ceramah. Sampe saya pun sempat jadi “korbannya”. Padahal dia sendiri ibadahnya belum bagus, mannernya masih minim banget, ilmu agamanya juga dangkal, tapi lagaknya 2 miliar. LOL.
Ah tapi saya gak pernah terang2an menuding orang2 seperti itu, kalo ngomel dalam ati sih sering. LOL. Yah ngapain juga nanggepin mereka? Kalo saya nanggepin mereka berarti sama aja dong?
Pun saya juga gak suka ma penganut agama laen yang ikut campur terlalu jauh ma permasalahan dalam negeri kita sekarang, seperti penyerbuan FPI, Ahmadiyah, dll. MYOB dong! Mau komentar silakan tapi jangan terlalu jauh lah, toh mereka tidak mengerti antara ajaran Islam dengan kehidupan masyarakat Muslim, hanya melihat dari luar lingkaran kok banyak omong? Meski berusaha menengahi dan memberikan solusi, tapi sayangnya bukan menengahi apalagi memberikan solusi malah memperkeruh keadaan saja. Begitu yang saya saksikan selama ini.
Susah ya kalo masing2 pihak menjadikan agama sebagai kepentingan politiknya.
Interesting article, Rima. Obviously there are some topics that manage to extend your attention span!
I think the problem is less to do with religion per se and more to do specifically with organized religion. May be a semantic point, but I believe that as soon as you subscribe to the fiction that, in order to have a relationship with God, you have to be a part of a religious community and subscribe to a specific set of dogmas then you have a problem. You no longer have to reconcile your behaviour with your own conscience, you can find excuses (“I confessed so it’s OK” “They are infidels so they don’t matter”).
The world will always be full of people who want to ram their ideas – religious, political, social, philosophical – down your throat. The problem is that organized religion essentially gives you a social mandate to do so.
If you believe that God exists then surely you can embrace that faith and take comfort from it without feeling the need to identify yourself in terms of dogmatic principles that go against your own religious convictions.
Rima…
Religion matters!
If it did not matter then perhaps you would not have written this piece and it might not have attracted the comments that it did now that you have written it!
The question is how do “we” manage the relationship between those of “us” for who religion matters and for those of “us” who do not give a rat’s arse about the subject?
Just my two bobs worth!
therry: no need girl, when someone asks, I will give them the facts. but I am too tired to type it all in.
Mike: That is BRILLIANT! I will certainly join your Universal Church of Wonder!
yonna: memang susah yon.. :p
Steve Bowen: as for my attention span, some days are better than others..
Yes, I don’t like anything organized. Organized atheism or agnosticism is not for me either.
I agree with you, I think anyone can have a meaningful relationship with god without affirming their belief to any set of dogma. And I just have had enough of that.
Rob Baiton: Not to me it doesn’t. It makes an interesting topic, one I know people would respond to..
And your question is my question too. But it seems those of us who think religion matters feels the strong need to shove it down the throats of those who doesn’t care.
Rima,
Religion is a drug for those who cannot handle the truth. In the beginning it was the universal answer to all things unknown. The rising of the sun, the changing of the seasons, birth and death itself were given spiritual significance. It remains so for those who cannot, or wish not, to see the answers they seek. A blot of lightening in a muddy pool of water is an auspicious start to life. The God story is far better….
Later religion became a social control mechanism. Thou shalt not….. as Christians say of the 10 commandments. Cover up the hair woman, because “XXX” said so. The unpleasant truth, that the men of the tribe cannot control their sexual desires and will rape you if you do not, is not as “nice” a reason. And so its written in a book, which must be true.
And then religion became a political tool. “There is one state in our religion, and you only obey the religious leaders…..”
And now we are in this mess.
To be honest I don’t care about Indonesia. It’s a Muslim country, and if the moderate Muslims cannot be bothered to get off their asses and tell their vocal brothers to “shut the f##k up”, well then they live with what happens.
But when it expands into traditionally non Muslim countries like England or Australia, then I begin to think its time I told them to “shut the f##k up”……
So here is is, right from the Bears mouth. I don’t mind what you do in the shithole countries that you mess up with your claptrap dogma, but the moment you start acting like that in my homelands you will feel my boot in the ass, and it wont be nice…..
yonna: I will reply to you in english ya yon, so that other people understand. I will also translate what you wrote in Indonesian to English, so people will understand and because I wasn’t really paying attention the first time I read it.
for this part that you wrote
“I dont like followers of other religions (non-muslims) that are meddling too much in the matters of our countries like FPI attacks, Ahmadiyya etc. Mind your own business please! These people are welcome to comment but not too much because they do not understand the teachings of Islams and the life of Muslims. They only see from outside so they should not talk too much. Although they are trying to mediate and give a solution, it is not mediation that they are giving but they are making things worse. so far, that’s what I see.”
The thing is, if you are a Muslim who thinks that Islam is a religion of peace and understanding, you would not agree with FPI. They are a bunch of morons who go around closing churches, places of business, attack other people and so on. And if you think that this kind of behaviour should be dealt with by Muslims, as long as it’s dealt with, then it’s ok. The fact is, some Muslim are condoning their acts, they think FPI is really the defender of their religion. Which is sad, because if you believe that your religion is the one true way and your God is the one true God, none of them needs defending from mere mortals.
As for Ahmadiyya, we lived with them side by side for almost a century, and they have also fought for Indonesia’s independence. Most importantly, they are not hurting anybody. Why must they be attacked? God should be the judge, not humans. Those humans, those people who claim they are following the truest path of Islam, are still human. They have no right to judge others. And this is a matter of human rights, something that must be protected because once terrorist-like organisations like FPI rules, even secular and moderate sunni muslims will eventually be their target. They will not stop unless they get ALL that they want. And I doubt what they want is anything like the beautiful pluralism culture of Indonesia.
Choosing a religion is one thing, but it’s another thing when people of X religion are forcing their religion to other people and to try to change a democracy into a one religion country with no tolerance to people of other beliefs.
The FPI are just people, Ahmadiyyas are people, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims are just people. All them should be able to live side by side in harmony, mind their own business and do not bother anybody, regardless of what they worship or do not. That’s what I think.
Polar Bear: Indonesia is not a Muslim country, it is, last I checked, a democracy with the most muslim population in the world. But it’s not a muslim country and it was not a traditionally muslim country either. Islam was imported as well as Buddhism, Christianity and Confucianism. Hindu is one of the traditional religions of Indonesia (Bali to be specific) as Bali is in the Hindu history (and if im not mistaken, their holy book as well). Traditional Indonesians are pagans, Hindus and Kejawen (kinda like pagan, but a bit different).
but for the first three paragraph you wrote: I completely agree!
Ahhh you see Rima, this is where we are different. I am a cynical realist.
If 80% of a population are Muslim, then democracy or not, the country is Muslim. Majority rules, like it or not. If 50.0000000000000001% of the population want hard line Sharia law, then they get it.
My worry is that given the Wests habit of paying people to breed, and growing migration to the West by Muslims, we will be where Indonesia is within 50-80 years.
Polar Bear: Sadly, the majority does rule.. but we are not much different, although I try to be as politically correct as possible..
Let me put it bluntly….. I think Indonesia is a lost cause. I think over time more and more areas will come under the control of hard liners.
Sharia law will be enforced for all. Religious police will become more strident. Men and women will be publicly whipped for trivial offences against the religion, which will control the state and set the laws . Alcohol sales will be banned on Fridays, warungs will be forcibly closed during times of prayer.
And minority groups will cause more and more social changes. Eg girls will be hassled or attacked in the streets for not covering up (Many French-born Arab girls in Paris resort to wearing hijab as the only protection against face-slashings by fundamental Muslims).
Christianity and other minorities will be pushed back. Already large numbers of non Muslims are buying into Bali, hoping the draconian “anti porn laws” and other extremist moves (like banning Utube) will be overlooked there.
Attitudes will change, and the average Indonesian will accept it.
Its over guys, because you just shrugged your shoulders in that Indonesian way and let it happen.
But Im just a Polar Bear….. What would I know?
That’s a rather bleak future, Polar Bear.
But often times I wonder whether this country will indeed head that way, judging by the way things are going and let happen.
I feel partly responsible for reading this; “Its over guys, because you just shrugged your shoulders in that Indonesian way and let it happen.”
I don’t want Indonesia to be anything like what you just depicted before, but what am I going to do when there are more and more people actually PREFERRING it to be that way, and I as a minority including many others out there are simply outnumbered.
It’s funny how some people say that non-muslim believers are interfering with FPI-AKKB incident, when the fact is that FPI has never, ever, minded their own businesses – ever.
Not only do they cause harm to their own people (Ahmadiyya people, but perhaps I will get stoned now because REAL muslims detest to be put in the same category like Ahmadiyya), they also cause harm to non-believers.
So who’s interefering who? We don’t actually see Buddhist monks/Catholic priests/followers destroying mosques and demanding them to stop praying so loud every afternoon, do we?
Here’s another thing that I don’t get: I ask why we, as the minorities and non-muslim believer, always get mistreated, given harsh treatment, badmouthed etc., etc., exactly what have we done wrong to them to deserve all of this?
the answer: It’s because Bush invade Afghanistan/Bush takes over Iraq/in the US muslim believer get mistreated too so you can’t really complain.
You see, all of those answers above has nothing to do whatsoever to Indonesia.
Nothing.
It wasn’t supposed to matter in the politics, except for its protection — in a way that the government would protect the human rights of its citizens.
But in reality, it matters. It even matters in aspects it wasn’t supposed to matter, e.g: In technology. It wasn’t supposed to matter there, but it does hold a significant value now. For instance, Indonesian Linux users now divide itself into religious groups? Is it even making any sense? (Well, actually, it’s just this one religious group.)
It’s stupid. That’s a complete understatement to science, and yes, humanity.
In my opinion, it’s not really about religion. It’s about social and economic injustice, that’s where the problems have rooted too deep. Religion merely provides the justification.
Great post!
Rima…
It does matter!
I am jumping up and down on the spot here as I type this!!!!
You say it does not matter to you but alas your concerned about those that shove the dreaded religion pill down your throat!
I do not believe in God (at the moment perhaps in my last dying moment I will be looking to convert) and in that sense religion does not matter. However, every day I have to contend with some clown trying to show me the way to salvation and it annoys the hell out of me, so in that sense it matters…
If religion truly does not matter then you would not have written about it, not even to increase traffic, and you would just tell any one trying to talk to you about religion to fuck off!
But once again I think that religion being forced upon you and upon others by over-enthusiastic religious zealots bothers you, and in that sense it matters
Just my random ramblings on this excellent post
Polar Bear: I do agree with therry, very bleak future. I prefer to believe otherwise.
Therry: What you said is true. Makes me sadder.
Marisa: for me it doesn’t matter anymore. It used to, and now it’s just something I don’t care for. I prefer to live without it. In the Indonesian society, I feel it has torn us apart. But your points are also valid. I guess it is different for each people.
Rob Baiton: In that sense, then yes, it does matter. Then I might have to correct myself. I meant, ‘I don’t care about religion anymore’
And rob, please do not jump up and down, the thought of you doing that makes me giggle uncontrollably.
It makes you giggle and it just makes me jiggle…more gym time!
Rima is the best, mwah! Big hug from somebody really sexy… (wink wink)
I agree, its bleak. (I feel a blog post coming on about the proven global expansion of fundamental Islam and the unproven global warming theory).
And I agree with Therry, what can you do when the majority want it? That’s why I see Indonesia as a lost cause. The critical mass has been reached, and apathy (and concerns with just staying alive) is endemic in Indonesia.
Some countries may be able to stave off the creeping fundamentalism by simply stemming migration from Muslims. After all, why would they want to live in a decadent western culture.
Religion to me, and this is my belief only, is a set of standards , rules, behaviors, actions which should have some over arching good will to ALL people.
Now I already have all of these things “in” me, given to me from my parents and my upbringing and my environment. So at this stage I see no added value, to me, from any religion.
On the contrary, I see many religions acting in ways that I find totally unacceptable, interfering with children springs to mind, causing harm to others for what ever reason another. I also have a fundamental problem with what I call “Blind Faith” where any idea of people free thinking is suppressed, like PB said, a control method, not a better way to live.
I see all the good intentions of religions being corrupted by those who seem some times to be the “greatest” believers.
So until the product quality improves across the board, i won’t be purchasing.
@Rima
thanks ya mbak for the translate. when things become sensitive i choose to write it in Bahasa and i don’t want everybody’s here get miffed, however i must respect the blog’s owner
but when you translate it, i don’t think it’s forbidden to discuss it in English, thanks for agreeing my some points and thanks for your acceptance to my different views
Now living away from home, I also realized how stupid all the things we (or they) were (and still are) fighting for at home. Who insults whose religion. Who wears what. Those problems seem to be artificial and shallow. Yet we spend most of our waking hour and our nations’ limited resources to fight over those issues.
Religion, as other basic human rights such as breathing, is one’s right. I heard constantly how our nation is so proud to the point of that is the ONLY identity the majority population wants to be identified with. “We are the BIGGEST M—– country in the world”. I say that is such a shame, we have a lot more than that. We should be focusing on the wealth of different cultures and beautiful islands that form the country as a whole.
I am a strong practitioner of a certain religious belief myself. I don’t identify myself as one proudly oh so openly. That is my basic right and I take it very personally. My religion doesn’t shape who I am. It does become a way of life and a part of me, but there is so much more of me than that.
And yes, lately, we don’t hear that much of the saying “Indonesia is a harmonious country where people with different background, culture and religious beliefs live together happily” as when I was growing up.
Rob Baiton: Yeah, I should go to the gym too. am jiggling all over. lol
Anonymous: wink wink to you too girl!
Polar Bear: I don’t think it’s Islam or Muslims per se that is the problem P, it’s some of them and their distorted perception of their religion. I know plenty of Muslims who are educated, rational, logical and secular-moderate. If more of them speak up against the radicals then maybe things will change. But the thing is, those people (like the NU Indonesians and JIL) are now also being called heretic by the radical idiots. that’s the problem in Indonesia it seems.
GJ: EXACTLY! I was brought up on a set of moral principle that I believe is based on logic rather than just religion. My father, although he is a devout Muslim, is a scientist. So as a child, I was brought up more moderate than other Indonesian Muslims. So now I don’t see the need for religion, I don’t see the need for my kids to have one either. You are so much more articulate it saying this than I was.
yonna: Sorry yon, I didn’t think it was that sensitive, and I think the visitors of this blog are cool debaters, not ones who name call or debate with hate etc..
And anyway, no need to thank me for anything, I mean, if everybody in the world have the same opinion and point of view, the world would be mighty boring, wouldn’t it? lol
I am glad we can respect each other’s different opinions and still get along fine. This is what I’m talking about, just like ‘bhinneka tunggal ika’ hehehhe
Andie Summerkiss: Wow! I couldn’t have said it better! you are absolutely right! a religion or lack thereof certainly is not all that we are. it’s a part of us, and something very personal. Good points!
I agree Rima, it’s only the fanatics BUT the world expects the moderates to stand up and be counted, and as I commented earlier, there is a collective shrug of the shoulder in Indonesia.
I have video clips of women being whipped in BA. Does anyone protest??? FPI attack people in public. Does anyone protest??
The same shrug of the shoulder occurs in the UK. Moderate Muslims keep their heads down and say nothing, even when lunatics blow up the trains.
In Australia idiot Muslim leaders make fanatical speeches in mosques. The moderates listen intently, then go home without saying anything.
And that is my point. Someone is going to have to tell these maniacs that they are wrong. If I do it they think I am attacking Islam. It has to be Muslims that say NO.
Polar Bear: I totally agree with you 100 million percent!
Baaaaaa You just want more flattery
Thanks for the compliment, but you are way more sexier saying it than me!!!!!!!!!!
Rim, what makes you think somebody sexy is a girl? it could be a dude. A hunky dude!! A sexy hunky dude with rippling muscles and lean-jawed face and brooding eyes.
Why am I having images of Jon Bon Jervi in my mind all of a sudden?
@Rima
yes, we think two or more different things should get along well side by side. but sadly, others don’t think so, they keep trying to push their opinion to us. capek deh.
it is okay to hold on to our notion, but if someone else has different opinion, then we don’t have to carry on. the more we prolong, the more confusing and the more disgressing and the more stupid we are. LOL
the worst thing is we use bad words just to win our opinion (guess : opinion or selfishness?) hehehe.
respecting each other is become rare lately, that’s why i’m thanking you for that
Therry, forget sexy hunky dudes with rippling muscles and lean-jawed face and brooding eyes.
Think about sexy Polar Bears, freshly dry cleaned fur coats, cute black noses and BIG paws holding a giant Polar Bear ice lolly…..
@ PB Batik beats fur coat any day.
Therry/PolarBear/GJ: Gosh.. I am soo turned on right now by the thought of a sexy hunky polar bear with rippling muscles, freshly dry cleaned fur coats, cute black noses and BIG paws wearing BATIK!
don’t forget the blangkon, and sunglasses too.
a polar bear will look way cooler with a sunglasses, batik shirt and blangkon…
You have described me to a “T”. Sunnies, boot-polish black nose, clean fur and a bright batik…
@ PB Hey Fur Ball lay off the Batik thats mt secret weapon.
Batik Boy
Just burn religion like that. Religion that make we not human anymore.
Hey, Kak Rima.. just droppin by to say hi! we shared the same ideas on facebook, remember? hehe.. well, keep writing kak.. Keep opening people minds with your words.. also i have some words to say to the readers of this topic, try to look back to time before religions.. about 6000BC if you want to start from hinduism,or 4000 BC if you want to start from Judaism, if you look close enough you’ll see the big story behind them all, you’ll see that they were all just a product of civilization, its a story more like a fairytale or lulaby develepod time to time. Its a big myth that divert us from the main problem of our world, u can see the paradox of God, Love us but in the same time could condemn us to an eternal place of torment. Religion has lost its wisdom, it corrupted by our mind, its easily corrupted because we human invented it in the first time. Our Ancestor shifted from the flawless law of nature to they’re own fabricated self fulfilling law which is religion. If you people just step outside your safe, and comfort box and look around, with an open mind, you’ll see that this world is on its edge of destruction. You’ll see a lot of problems, from starvation, never ending conflicts, killing, and struggle for powers happen everywhere and religion used as tool to gain power but not solving the problems.
Abi´s last blog post..Phoenix
“Hi Abi!!!
apa kabar???
Yeah, you are absolutely right about this.. at least, I think so..
Hi Rima, I just check out your blog and I found this brilliant post. Talking about religion, I’d like to share a story. A few days ago I had conversation with 3 girl friends of mine. I mentioned global warming on our conversation. Then 2 of my very religious girl friend chimed in “well, judgement day has been written in our holybook. Our preachers predicted it to be soon.” Then another one of my girl friend asked them ” how do those preachers know about such thing”. Then those girls answered with conviction ” some preacher can hear voices from god. These preachers has close relationships with god.” And then one of the girl who is a straight A university student said “I couldn’t wait for that day to come. Because then I’d be saved” My jaw dropped that very second. Don’t know what to say..I don’t mean to offend anyone with this post… But it’s been bogging my mind and then voila, I found this post.
Jenny: Hi there..
Yeah I’ve had similar experiences. At first I will end up in a debate with them about this but as I get older, I just find ignoring what they say works wonders!
Rima, numpang komentar ya…
Terus terang pemikiran Saya ttg agama sejak Saya pindah ke US lumayan berbeda dgn waktu Saya masih di Indonesia. Kalau dulu Saya pikir kalau kamu tidak beragama, itu salah besar (=masuk neraka maksudnya.;p.), sekarang Saya melihatnya, well, kalau kamu tidak beragama tapi kamu orang yang baik – Saya lebih hormati drpd orang yang mengaku beragama tapi ‘jahat’ sama orang lain…Buat Saya, agama itu pilihan pribadi, dan buat Saya sampai detik ini Islam masih yg paling cocok. Tapi banyak hal2 yg Saya tidak cocok atau sependapat dgn rekan2 sesama Muslim lainnya – ini yang kadang buat Saya sedih….
Saya pikir, dunia tidak harus semua sama-tidak harus semua Islam/Kristen. Tidak ada garansi kalau kita semua 1 agama, kita akan menjadi bangsa yg lebih baik.
Saya lebih percaya, kalau kita semua menghormati orang lain, jujur, tidak menghakimi orang lain….then we’ll have a better world!
Dayang: Iya sama persis saya dengan kamu. Karena di Indonesia kita diajarkan bahwa tidak beragama atau tidak percaya tuhan itu kaya komunis lah, jahat lah, padahal kenyataan adalah jahat itu ada di mana2, malah org beragama banyak yg jauh lebih jahat dibanding yg tidak beragama yang ‘katanya’ tidak ada guidance moral dan spiritual..